<div dir="ltr">Wendy,<div><br></div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">We did note at the time that there may be situations particularly with</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">educational testing where you would want part of the literal text</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">changable by language and part to remain constant. In other words</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">whether your primary language is English, Spanish, or Polish, I want</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">to know your interpretation of a German word X.</span><br>
</div><div><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px"><br></span></div><div style>This is something that is wildly confusing to me. If a question is in English about a word (of any language) isn't it an English language regardless of the words within? See the first email that was about a fictional word. If I say it is a German word do I tag it as German or not?</div>
<div><br></div><div style>Cheers,</div><div style>Sam.</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div>--- Specificity is the soul of all good communication ---<br>--- When the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box ---<br>
Find out more about me: <a href="http://about.me/legostormtroopr" target="_blank">http://about.me/legostormtroopr</a></div>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On 3 June 2013 01:18, Wendy Thomas <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:wlt@umn.edu" target="_blank">wlt@umn.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Actually what I was saying is that this wouldn't work. This is why<br>
QuestionText is repeatable...for language.<br>
<br>
This way I can create an English language question with the condition,<br>
a German language question with condition etc. This is why<br>
QuestionText is repeatable.<br>
<br>
Note to Jeremy, we spent about 20 minutes on this during a conference<br>
call. Our concern at the time was that we had made what had been<br>
LiteralText/Text a structured string. When we changed structuredstring<br>
to a bundle this caused problems with LiteralText as it made it<br>
difficult if not impossible to unbundle. Therefore we made it contain<br>
r:Content which was the single language content with optional XHTML.<br>
<br>
We did note at the time that there may be situations particularly with<br>
educational testing where you would want part of the literal text<br>
changable by language and part to remain constant. In other words<br>
whether your primary language is English, Spanish, or Polish, I want<br>
to know your interpretation of a German word X.<br>
<br>
Wendy<br>
<br>
<br>
On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Samuel Spencer<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><<a href="mailto:theodore.therone@gmail.com">theodore.therone@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> Wendy,<br>
><br>
><br>
> Referring to this block:<br>
> --------------------------------------------------<br>
> We adopted a specific approach to Dynamic Text so that you didn't end<br>
> up with something like this:<br>
><br>
> <LiteralText><Content xml:lang="en">Blah Blah Blah</Content></LiteralText><br>
> <LiteralText><Content xml:lang="de">Etwas Etwas</Content></LiteralText><br>
> <ConditionalText>whatever the conditional section is</ConditionalText><br>
> <LiteralText><Content xml:lang="en">Blah Blah</Content></LiteralText><br>
> <LiteralText><Content xml:lang="de">Etwas Etwas<br>
> Etwas</Content></LiteralText><br>
> <ConditionalText>a bit of extra because of the idiosycracies of the<br>
> german language</ConditionalText><br>
> <LiteralText><Content xml:lang="de">Etwas Etwas</Content></LiteralText><br>
><br>
> How do you parse that out?<br>
> --------------------------------------------------<br>
><br>
> You couldn't parse that in German anyway? German and English have entirely<br>
> different syntactic orders. Imagine the Question "Where is your<br>
> [husband/wife] come from? The syntax for this in German is entirely the<br>
> other way to English "Where come does your spouse?" Language syntax,<br>
> especially with Dynamic text becomes so different in different natural<br>
> languages, that what you're proposing wouldn't work.<br>
><br>
> The solution that I have seen independently developed in tools is to use the<br>
> QuestionText to identify the language, and repeat that for different<br>
> languages. Any other solution for displaying becomes difficult to implement.<br>
><br>
> You have said that many people have asked for this change, but I think again<br>
> it would be useful to know who, so we can construct a workable use case. Why<br>
> do they want this change, how do they envisage this happening in software,<br>
> can it be achieved in other ways, and more bluntly, do they actually need<br>
> this content at all?<br>
><br>
> As remarked, this change invalidates massive amounts of existing working<br>
> DDI, and will mean a large change for tools developers. At best, I would<br>
> assume that many tools would just use the "primaryLanguage" Attribute and<br>
> ignore any child language attributes.<br>
><br>
> Additionally, contrary to George Bush's belief "entrepreneur" is a French<br>
> word. But in DDI3.2 is it tagged as en or fr? It can't be both, and even in<br>
> the context of the above, it is a word in 2 languages. How would it be<br>
> tagged? How would it be tagged if the intent of the question is to gauges<br>
> English speakers familiarity with foreign loan words in English?<br>
><br>
> Sam.<br>
><br>
> --- Specificity is the soul of all good communication ---<br>
> --- When the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box ---<br>
> Find out more about me: <a href="http://about.me/legostormtroopr" target="_blank">http://about.me/legostormtroopr</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> On 2 June 2013 23:43, Wendy Thomas <<a href="mailto:wlt@umn.edu">wlt@umn.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Sam<br>
>><br>
>> We have changed the structure of all International and<br>
>> StructuredStrings in order to bundle together sets of language<br>
>> equivilent texts at the request of a large group of users who explored<br>
>> and requested this change. There is no "Text" within "Content", there<br>
>> is just either xs:string or the option for XHTML tags. The case I was<br>
>> using was one where regardless of the language of the primary part of<br>
>> the text "What is your understanding of the German word" "Kolsch"? the<br>
>> term Kolsch would always be there and always be in German. If we want<br>
>> to indicate the language of the reader we need to use something other<br>
>> than xml:lang directly. The attribute xml:lang has a specific usage<br>
>> and indicates the language of the text string of the object it is an<br>
>> attribute of. We could have an intended language of reader, user, etc.<br>
>> but this is the first time this has been raised.<br>
>><br>
>> We adopted a specific approach to Dynamic Text so that you didn't end<br>
>> up with something like this:<br>
>><br>
>> <LiteralText><Content xml:lang="en">Blah Blah Blah</Content></LiteralText><br>
>> <LiteralText><Content xml:lang="de">Etwas Etwas</Content></LiteralText><br>
>> <ConditionalText>whatever the conditional section is</ConditionalText><br>
>> <LiteralText><Content xml:lang="en">Blah Blah</Content></LiteralText><br>
>> <LiteralText><Content xml:lang="de">Etwas Etwas<br>
>> Etwas</Content></LiteralText><br>
>> <ConditionalText>a bit of extra because of the idiosycracies of the<br>
>> german language</ConditionalText><br>
>> <LiteralText><Content xml:lang="de">Etwas Etwas</Content></LiteralText><br>
>><br>
>> How do you parse that out?<br>
>><br>
>> BTW...if you are changing beers for each language you should use<br>
>> conditional text and have the value based on language I would think.<br>
>><br>
>> Oh if we went back to 3.1 for DynamicText the new StructuredStringText<br>
>> would result in the following:<br>
>><br>
>> <LiteralText><Content xml:lang="en">What is your understanding of the<br>
>> German word </Content><Content xml:lang="es">[whatever that is in<br>
>> Spanish]</Content></LiteralText><LiteralText><Content xml:lang="de"<br>
>> isTranslatable="false">Kolsh?</Content></LiteralText><br>
>><br>
>> So how would you parse that for a Spanish reader?<br>
>><br>
>> I think a) leaving the structure of DynamicText as it is in 3.2 and b)<br>
>> adding a top level @primaryLanguage type xml:lang could indicate the<br>
>> intended usage language for a mixed language question where one part<br>
>> is translatable and the other isn't.<br>
>><br>
>> Wendy<br>
>><br>
>> p.s. see 223 for why LiteralText is now a structured string and for<br>
>> full discussion regarding representation of multilingual material see<br>
>> 315<br>
>><br>
>> On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Samuel Spencer<br>
>> <<a href="mailto:theodore.therone@gmail.com">theodore.therone@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>> > Wendy,<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Your proposed rational for attatching the language at the content level<br>
>> > actually does fit a defined use case.<br>
>> > First of all, if I as a developer were to rend this question for an<br>
>> > English<br>
>> > speaker, the german tagged section of the question should presumably not<br>
>> > be<br>
>> > displayed.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Secondly, what happens if instead of kolsch we ask the reader<br>
>> > interpretation<br>
>> > of the Czech word "pilsner". Now the problem is, Pilsner is a Czech word<br>
>> > for<br>
>> > a specific beer, but now, that is an english word for the same thing.<br>
>> > XML:lang cannot be repeated and the content cannot be space delimited so<br>
>> > is<br>
>> > Pilsner in this context a Czech word or an English word? See also,<br>
>> > entrepreneur (French), veranda (Indian), sushi (Japanese).<br>
>> > < d:QuestionText><d:LiteralText><r:Content xml:lang="en">What is your<br>
>> > understanding of the Czech word </r:Content><r:Content<br>
>> > xml:lang="cz">"pilsner"?</r:Content></d:LiteralText><d:QuestionText><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Consider also the German word "tagfraggensicht"<br>
>> > < d:QuestionText><d:LiteralText><r:Content xml:lang="en">What is your<br>
>> > understanding of the German word </r:Content><r:Content<br>
>> ><br>
>> > xml:lang="??">"tagfraggensicht"?</r:Content></d:LiteralText><d:QuestionText><br>
>> ><br>
>> > In this example, the word "tagfraggensicht" isn't german, in fact it<br>
>> > isn't a<br>
>> > word. Perhaps the intent of the question is to examine lying? Under<br>
>> > tyour<br>
>> > proposed solution I would have to have a null xml:lang tag as the string<br>
>> > content has no language.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > As an alternative, I would suggest in the context of the question the<br>
>> > lang<br>
>> > tag identifies the language of the intended reader, so instead:<br>
>> > < d:QuestionText><d:LiteralText><r:Content xml:lang="en">What is your<br>
>> > understanding of the German word<br>
>> > "agfraggensicht"?</r:Content></d:LiteralText><d:QuestionText><br>
>> ><br>
>> > However, as you have pointed out, the Content tag needs a Text tag so it<br>
>> > becomes:<br>
>> > < d:QuestionText><d:LiteralText><r:Content xml:lang="en"><r:Text>What is<br>
>> > your<br>
>> > understanding of the German word<br>
>> > "agfraggensicht"?</r:Text></r:Content></d:LiteralText><d:QuestionText><br>
>> ><br>
>> > Which is an extra layer of detail than in the original schema! The Text<br>
>> > components for questions in DDI3.1 were a little verbose and could use<br>
>> > simplification, but they worked and were very descriptive. This not only<br>
>> > adds additional elements, it invalidates vast amounts of existing<br>
>> > content,<br>
>> > and makes development against the schema harder.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > I vote that the bug is acknowledged as is, and the QuestionText element<br>
>> > is<br>
>> > rolled back to the 3.1 schema definition.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > Cheers,<br>
>> > Sam.<br>
>> ><br>
>> > --- Specificity is the soul of all good communication ---<br>
>> > --- When the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box<br>
>> > ---<br>
>> > Find out more about me: <a href="http://about.me/legostormtroopr" target="_blank">http://about.me/legostormtroopr</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>> > On 2 June 2013 20:48, Wendy Thomas <<a href="mailto:wlt@umn.edu">wlt@umn.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Minor update....note that in example below "r:Content" should be<br>
>> >> d:Text of type d:TextType.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> d:TextType uses the extension base of r:Content and adds an attribute<br>
>> >> that allows for the recognition of leading and trailing spaces.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> My error...I should have looked at the schema closer and not relyed on<br>
>> >> my memory...which was close but clearly not firing on all cylinders. I<br>
>> >> have edited the note in Mantis to relay corrected information. Also<br>
>> >> added the missing end tags and start tag for the second literal text<br>
>> >> segment in the second example. Clearly had a fun and exhausting time<br>
>> >> at IASSIST!<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> Wendy<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> On Sun, Jun 2, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Wendy Thomas <<a href="mailto:wlt@umn.edu">wlt@umn.edu</a>> wrote:<br>
>> >> > I am sending this out as it seems to be a general interest question<br>
>> >> > and I'd like broader feedback. There is a specific question regarding<br>
>> >> > the resolution of this issue stated within the Note below. The brief<br>
>> >> > answer to the issue as stated is that you can declare language in a<br>
>> >> > QuestionItem and other DynamicText, its just that the language and<br>
>> >> > translation tags lie within the Content tag (which is the language<br>
>> >> > specific string in a StructuredStringType). The question is whether<br>
>> >> > or<br>
>> >> > not we need a top level "primary language" attribute to clarify when<br>
>> >> > the content of a single language example contains foreign text. See<br>
>> >> > details below.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Please make your comments known as soon as possible. -- Wendy<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Summary 0000602: QuestionText no longer has xml:lang. Cannot specify<br>
>> >> > the language of questions.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Description: The QuestionText element no longer has xml:lang, so it<br>
>> >> > is<br>
>> >> > impossible to specify the language of question text, or to specify<br>
>> >> > questions with translations.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Apologies if this has already been resolved as part of some other<br>
>> >> > issue. Or am I missing something here? This seems quite serious.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Proposed Solution: Restore xml:lang on QuestionText. This would be<br>
>> >> > consistent with the documentation for QuestionText, which states<br>
>> >> > "Note<br>
>> >> > that when using QuestionText, the full QuestionText must be repeated<br>
>> >> > for multi-language versions of the content<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > NOTE 1654<br>
>> >> > In all cases of DynamicText we decided that the object itself must<br>
>> >> > repeat to clearly provide a language alternative. All XxxxText<br>
>> >> > objects<br>
>> >> > of DynamicTextType reside in a parent complex object that is the one<br>
>> >> > carrying the ID. The documentation states that the XxxxText object is<br>
>> >> > repeatable for the purpose of expressing multiple languages and that<br>
>> >> > the assumption is that the content of each repetition within the<br>
>> >> > parent object is equivilent content in an alternate language.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > LiteralText is no longer a StructuredStringType but contains the<br>
>> >> > repeatable object Content which is the language specific subelement<br>
>> >> > of<br>
>> >> > a StructuredString.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > So in a QuestionItem:<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > < d:QuestionText><d:LiteralText><r:Content xml:lang="de">Kommen Sie<br>
>> >> > mit?</r:Content></d:LiteralText><d:QuestionText><br>
>> >> > < d:QuestionText><d:LiteralText><r:Content xml:lang="en">Do you want<br>
>> >> > to come with?</r:Content></d:LiteralText><d:QuestionText><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > This was done because a question could have multiple language<br>
>> >> > segements and because the dynamic text may fall in different<br>
>> >> > locations<br>
>> >> > in various language strings. We felt it was confusing to mix multiple<br>
>> >> > language strings into a single QuestionText under such conditions and<br>
>> >> > could even be impossible to parse out.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > So at the moment it is a matter of digging further into the<br>
>> >> > DynamicText content to determine language. The question we should<br>
>> >> > address is the following:<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Do we need to provide information on the primary language of the<br>
>> >> > DynamicText content at the parent object level?<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Pro: Saves digging into question and also clarifies the primary<br>
>> >> > language for mult-language content within a questions, e.g. the<br>
>> >> > following:<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > < d:QuestionText><d:LiteralText><r:Content xml:lang="en">What is your<br>
>> >> > understanding of the German word </r:Content><r:Content<br>
>> >> > xml:lang="de">"Kölsch"?</r:Content></d:LiteralText><d:QuestionText><br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Con: What is the rule for language identification conflicts between<br>
>> >> > primary language information at DynamicText level and Content level?<br>
>> >> > For example I could be asking a question in one language for a<br>
>> >> > questionnaire that was intended for use in another language group. In<br>
>> >> > short resolving conflicts is not a one answer fits all situations.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > Note that "Content" has the full set of language and translation<br>
>> >> > information found in any international or structred string. Also note<br>
>> >> > that for ALL other string types that support multple languages the<br>
>> >> > language and translation information is contained in the sub-element.<br>
>> >> > The object that is of InternationalStringType or StructuredStringType<br>
>> >> > is a means of binding multiple language equivilencies together.<br>
>> >> ><br>
>> >> > --<br>
>> >> > Wendy L. Thomas Phone: +1 612.624.4389<br>
>> >> > Data Access Core Director Fax: +1 612.626.8375<br>
>> >> > Minnesota Population Center Email: <a href="mailto:wlt@umn.edu">wlt@umn.edu</a><br>
>> >> > University of Minnesota<br>
>> >> > 50 Willey Hall<br>
>> >> > 225 19th Avenue South<br>
>> >> > Minneapolis, MN 55455<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >> --<br>
>> >> Wendy L. Thomas Phone: +1 612.624.4389<br>
>> >> Data Access Core Director Fax: +1 612.626.8375<br>
>> >> Minnesota Population Center Email: <a href="mailto:wlt@umn.edu">wlt@umn.edu</a><br>
>> >> University of Minnesota<br>
>> >> 50 Willey Hall<br>
>> >> 225 19th Avenue South<br>
>> >> Minneapolis, MN 55455<br>
>> >><br>
>> >> _______________________________________________<br>
>> >> DDI-SRG mailing list<br>
>> >> <a href="mailto:DDI-SRG@icpsr.umich.edu">DDI-SRG@icpsr.umich.edu</a><br>
>> >> <a href="http://lists.icpsr.umich.edu/mailman/listinfo/ddi-srg" target="_blank">http://lists.icpsr.umich.edu/mailman/listinfo/ddi-srg</a><br>
>> ><br>
>> ><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> --<br>
>> Wendy L. Thomas Phone: +1 612.624.4389<br>
>> Data Access Core Director Fax: +1 612.626.8375<br>
>> Minnesota Population Center Email: <a href="mailto:wlt@umn.edu">wlt@umn.edu</a><br>
>> University of Minnesota<br>
>> 50 Willey Hall<br>
>> 225 19th Avenue South<br>
>> Minneapolis, MN 55455<br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Wendy L. Thomas Phone: +1 612.624.4389<br>
Data Access Core Director Fax: +1 612.626.8375<br>
Minnesota Population Center Email: <a href="mailto:wlt@umn.edu">wlt@umn.edu</a><br>
University of Minnesota<br>
50 Willey Hall<br>
225 19th Avenue South<br>
Minneapolis, MN 55455<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>